A tire wall is not a wall of tires

Erik Runeso

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by Erik Runeso » Wed, 03 Nov 1999 04:00:00

There has been a lot of discussion regarding the Moore accident whether
'tire walls' would be effective in protecting a driver crashing against
the inside wall at a superspeedway. One of the main arguments against
them is that a tire wall could grab the car, spinning it around, causing
more damage.
When this sort of protective barrier is discussed, I (and many others)
do not mean litterally a wall of tires, but an energy absorbing barrier
which is flat on the outside and flexible inside. Such a barrier would
not grab the car, but absorbs energy, unlike a concrete wall which
deflects energy.
I believe such a barrier exists inside of turn 4 at Indianapolis and did
proove effective at this years Indy 500.

-Erik Runeson

Stuar

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by Stuar » Wed, 03 Nov 1999 04:00:00


>There has been a lot of discussion regarding the Moore accident whether
>'tire walls' would be effective in protecting a driver crashing against
>the inside wall at a superspeedway. One of the main arguments against
>them is that a tire wall could grab the car, spinning it around, causing
>more damage.
>When this sort of protective barrier is discussed, I (and many others)
>do not mean litterally a wall of tires,

Oh, people should be more specific. All this time I've been thinking people
mean tyre walls that are like F1 tyre walls

Do you mean the kind of (inflatable) barriers that are used during FIM World
Superbike races? They race on the same tracks as F1 cars, but for some
reason those barriers are replaced with tyres whenever cars race on those
tracks. Don't know why, don't even know if anyone's tried them with cars.

Prefect Bei

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by Prefect Bei » Wed, 03 Nov 1999 04:00:00



>>There has been a lot of discussion regarding the Moore accident whether
>>'tire walls' would be effective in protecting a driver crashing against
>>the inside wall at a superspeedway. One of the main arguments against
>>them is that a tire wall could grab the car, spinning it around, causing
>>more damage.
>>When this sort of protective barrier is discussed, I (and many others)
>>do not mean litterally a wall of tires,

>Oh, people should be more specific. All this time I've been thinking people
>mean tyre walls that are like F1 tyre walls

>>but an energy absorbing barrier
>>which is flat on the outside and flexible inside. Such a barrier would
>>not grab the car, but absorbs energy, unlike a concrete wall which
>>deflects energy.
>>I believe such a barrier exists inside of turn 4 at Indianapolis and did
>>proove effective at this years Indy 500.

>Do you mean the kind of (inflatable) barriers that are used during FIM World
>Superbike races? They race on the same tracks as F1 cars, but for some
>reason those barriers are replaced with tyres whenever cars race on those
>tracks. Don't know why, don't even know if anyone's tried them with cars.

It could be with bikes the driver almost inevitable falls, in fact
that's the best thing. So the cushioning would be for a human being,
not a machine.

-joe-

"The best time to show respect for a person is while they are alive."

cyclo

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by cyclo » Wed, 03 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Erik Runeson teleported into the dark realm of rec.autos.sport.indy and
utterred something not entirely unlike
not takig the piss, real scientific speculation:

you could have a big block of foam, about 10 yards thick that you could
drive into and the car would just dirve into it, getting slowed down by
it being really sticky, but then you wouldn't be able to breath inside
... it could be 2 foot deep, but that'd be the same problem if the car
was upside down, unless it was spongy and had big air bubbles... you know
that stuff that they stick flowers into to arragne them and you can
squidge it, something like that, but bigger . the problem with tyre walls
is that you bouce off, if you had 1foot square blocks of this foamy stuff
it would just collapse under the force, but in such a way that it slows
the car right down before it gets through (anyone else dig this?). thered
have to bee really thick piles of the stuff though.

--
cycloid
"They might look the same but they don't taste the same"
wierd        - http://www.cycloid.f9.co.uk/
halflife/tfc - http://www.callnetuk.com/home/cycloid/
icq          - 31975972

Speedy Fas

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by Speedy Fas » Wed, 03 Nov 1999 04:00:00

On Tue, 02 Nov 1999 18:01:46 GMT, Erik Runeson


>There has been a lot of discussion regarding the Moore accident whether
>'tire walls' would be effective in protecting a driver crashing against
>the inside wall at a superspeedway. One of the main arguments against
>them is that a tire wall could grab the car, spinning it around, causing
>more damage.

And this would have prevented Greg's car from getting airborne??

Not a very good solution when the car is in a barrelroll.

Stuar

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by Stuar » Wed, 03 Nov 1999 04:00:00


>CART tested a *** "belt" at Rio and we never saw it again.  It was
>used to reduce crashes like Blundell's crash into the wall on one of
>the turns a few years ago.  You cannot put a tire barrier on the ovals
>outside walls but they tried the "belt" at Rio and it worked.

>Tire walls or barriers for pit walls and other concrete walls are a
>good idea.  You only need to look at Senna crash.  Senna might be alive
>if three rows of tires were at Tamburello.  Maybe someone should ask
>Schumacher if he preferred to crash into tires or a concrete wall at
>Silverstone.

Actually, it didn't look like the tyres did much of anything in that one,
but I'm sure he is glad they were there :). I bet next year we are going to
see 6 or 8 rows there, instead of just 3.
Barry Posne

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by Barry Posne » Wed, 03 Nov 1999 04:00:00


> Senna might be alive
> if three rows of tires were at Tamburello.

I'm really getting tired of your idiot posts. Three rows of tires will
bust of a suspension piece as easily as a wall will. And that is what
killed Senna.

The tires didn't slow him down. He dived right under them. Maybe you
should ask Panis about tire walls. Maybe his legs wouldn't have broken
if his spinning car hadn't become entangled in the tires and snapped in
two.

Frankhappy, you're full of (half-baked) ideas. Care to state what
credentials you have to go along with these ideas? Your experience in
safety and loss engineering, or physics, or racing?

bp

frankha..

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by frankha.. » Thu, 04 Nov 1999 04:00:00

CART tested a *** "belt" at Rio and we never saw it again.  It was
used to reduce crashes like Blundell's crash into the wall on one of
the turns a few years ago.  You cannot put a tire barrier on the ovals
outside walls but they tried the "belt" at Rio and it worked.

Tire walls or barriers for pit walls and other concrete walls are a
good idea.  You only need to look at Senna crash.  Senna might be alive
if three rows of tires were at Tamburello.  Maybe someone should ask
Schumacher if he preferred to crash into tires or a concrete wall at
Silverstone.






Sent via Deja.com http://www.ringcar.com/
Before you buy.

Russell Jasl

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by Russell Jasl » Fri, 05 Nov 1999 04:00:00

: CART tested a *** "belt" at Rio and we never saw it again.  It was

Funny, I see it everytime they race at Rio.

: used to reduce crashes like Blundell's crash into the wall on one of
: the turns a few years ago.  You cannot put a tire barrier on the ovals
: outside walls but they tried the "belt" at Rio and it worked.

That system only works for certain a angle of impact which Rio was.

: Tire walls or barriers for pit walls and other concrete walls are a
: good idea.  You only need to look at Senna crash.  Senna might be alive
: if three rows of tires were at Tamburello.  Maybe someone should ask
: Schumacher if he preferred to crash into tires or a concrete wall at
: Silverstone.

How many times are you going to post complete nonsense?  The tires did
nothing to slow done Schumacher.  He impacted the concrete wall at full
force regardless of the tires.

Rus'L
---
NOTE -- Remove ekfido.
---
Russell Jaslow     |         http://www.ringcar.com/;       |My employer

Spec Racer Ford #33|       http://www.ringcar.com/;     |to do with
Finger Lakes Region|     http://www.ringcar.com/;   |my drivel.

Tim Wohlford - Personal Emai

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by Tim Wohlford - Personal Emai » Fri, 05 Nov 1999 04:00:00

1.  There are such *** barriers at Michigan Speedway, the sister track to
California.  I assume that California has the same kinda thing there.  For
instance, there is such a barrier at the beginning of the backstretch on the
inside wall (where the emergency vehicles are parked).

2.  I suspect that tires wouldn't have prevented Moore's death... at that
speed, at that angle (head first) hitting water would've been fatal (as any
number of deaths in Unlimited Hydo Boat racing will attest).  Having your
head hit a tire (especially in a spinning motion) at 200 MPH might be less
of an impact than hitting the concrete, but "fatal is fatal".

3.  There are problems w/ such barriers.  First of all, I've seen such a
barrier bounce a driver back into traffic at high speeds (the car went from
forward to reverse instantly when it hit, then was pounded in the ***by
traffic -- good thing it was a 1/4 mile oval!).  Second, such barriers tend
to "grab" a car when it hits -- while a car that hits concrete at an angle
might just bounce off and continue, a car that hits the *** might "grab",
spin, bounce and become a serious incident.

Tim Wohlford


JP

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by JP » Sat, 06 Nov 1999 04:00:00


> There has been a lot of discussion regarding the Moore accident whether
> 'tire walls' would be effective in protecting a driver crashing against
> the inside wall at a superspeedway. One of the main arguments against
> them is that a tire wall could grab the car, spinning it around, causing
> more damage.
> When this sort of protective barrier is discussed, I (and many others)
> do not mean litterally a wall of tires, but an energy absorbing barrier
> which is flat on the outside and flexible inside. Such a barrier would
> not grab the car, but absorbs energy, unlike a concrete wall which
> deflects energy.
> I believe such a barrier exists inside of turn 4 at Indianapolis and did
> proove effective at this years Indy 500.

> -Erik Runeson

I think that the most important aspect is missing in this discussion:
car have to remain on the right sate namely on the wheels. If it hits
the barrirer with a high speed the***pit or the bottom in front the
type of the barrier do not matter.

I can not remember a case where gravel trap spin the car that was not
flying. Sure, it can spin a car that is very unstedy when entering the
trap.

After hitting the barrier the car can spin but then it is not so
dangerous any more.

The point is that gravel trap produces robust and constant deceleration.
There are nothing to grab as in the grass.

I think that in CART the gravel trap coould work better than in F1 as
the safety car is used and the trap could be repaired and the gravel
removed.

Maybe the gravel should be ligter when the speed is higher. The gravel
trap is also relatively ineffective when the car is traveling nose in
front but nothing is perfect.

Ken Fletche

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by Ken Fletche » Sat, 06 Nov 1999 04:00:00


> I'm really getting tired of your idiot posts. Three rows of tires will
> bust of a suspension piece as easily as a wall will. And that is what
> killed Senna.

or the suspnsion peice might've got caught in the tires! There is no way
that very same freak accident would happen the same way if anything else was
changed.

the tires and the gravel slowed him just not that much. If the tires moved
they absorbed energy. You know that is true.

Panis was hurt more than he might have been by the tire wall but not
fatally.

Anybody been killed by a tire wall?

Anyone been killed by a concret wall?

and your credentials, and if you are an expert in this area please help save
some more drivers not rationalize a death.

Ken

Barry Posne

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by Barry Posne » Sat, 06 Nov 1999 04:00:00


> and your credentials,

My credentials for what? All I am saying here is that people like you
and Frankhappy shouldn't jump to conclusions about what caused this
accident and what *might* have saved the driver. You don't know (your
statement "The Handford Device killed another driver" notwithstanding),
and the knee-jerk, uninformed lip-flapping annoys me no end. How about a
small, respectful mourning period before all the finger pointing?  What
I am saying is, shut up and wait and see what the investigating
authorities find. Do I need credentials to say that?

Cite one post where I've "rationalized" any deaths. And the only way to
elimenate all possibility of driver deaths is to elimenate motor racing.
Is that what you really want? It strongly appears, to me, that you do.

bp

Ken Fletche

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by Ken Fletche » Sat, 06 Nov 1999 04:00:00

Man o man, it's not personal Barry.

I'm typing, with my mouth closed, not lip flapping.

Danger is part of the sport, and I could accept rare deaths if all avialble
safety measures were in place.

Why don't you tell us when the mourning period is over and when things can
be debated??

Death is part of life and part of my work bp. I'm ok with it when I'm pretty
sure everyone has done their best, when people***up I get upset.

Ken



> > and your credentials,

> My credentials for what? All I am saying here is that people like you
> and Frankhappy shouldn't jump to conclusions about what caused this
> accident and what *might* have saved the driver. You don't know (your
> statement "The Handford Device killed another driver" notwithstanding),
> and the knee-jerk, uninformed lip-flapping annoys me no end. How about a
> small, respectful mourning period before all the finger pointing?  What
> I am saying is, shut up and wait and see what the investigating
> authorities find. Do I need credentials to say that?

> > and if you are an expert in this area please help save
> > some more drivers not rationalize a death.

> Cite one post where I've "rationalized" any deaths. And the only way to
> elimenate all possibility of driver deaths is to elimenate motor racing.
> Is that what you really want? It strongly appears, to me, that you do.

> bp

Barry Posne

A tire wall is not a wall of tires

by Barry Posne » Sat, 06 Nov 1999 04:00:00

OK, Ken. I'll try and stay as calm as I can about this. You state: "when
can things be debated". My contention: most, if not all, of the debate
here is pointless, as most of us where not there, know very little about
the subject, and have little input to any possible remedies. All we have
here is a bunch of mostly uninformed people putting out half baked
"ideas" based on nothing but their imaginations.

I am especially annoyed when people make definitive statements that have
no sound foundation. Statements such as "the Handford Device killed
another driver". Or "Greg Moore died because of his hand injury".

The few people who post here that are involved on racing on a daily
basis are telling us to  wait until the investigators do their job.
They'ere telling us that the sanctioniung bodies, which consist of
drivers, owners, track owners, manufactureres, etc, know best how to
deal with these problems.

I am also annoyed at people spouting uninformed opinions about what
safety improvements should be made. Tire walls/***
walls/parachutes/roof flaps/gravel/grass/pavement/small motors/arm
straps. All discussions are utterly moot. For every case where one of
these things might have helped, one can cite a time when they hurt the
situation.

You are implying that all available safety measures were not in place.

If you want safe racing, you could race robotically controlled Sherman
tanks at 25 mph in a *** encased straight line. But nobody would want
to.

The debate is, how safe is too safe? I can state that for every safety
measure that is included, an additional one can be implemented. And so
on, ad infinitum. The only way to make motor racing perfectly safe is to
ban it, and I don't want that. How safe should it be? Where is the line
drawn? Who gets to draw the line?

Not to be excessively morbid, but too much safety, too much security can
lead to too much recklessness. If there is no negative consequence to
recklessness or poor self-control, or lack of skill on the race track,
then there is one less reason to race.

Motor racing should not be a "safe" pursuit.

And I am angry at your continued assertions that somebody screwed up.
Please stop making that claim.

Barry P.